Talk:Grell Sutcliff
Important As per this discussion, Grell will be refered to as he/him. If you change it to she even after being told that we use he, you will be blocked. SereneChaos 16:45, August 17, 2011 (UTC) Using he or she The GLAAD Media Reference Guide suggests using a transgender person's preferred pronouns when referring to them. 20:24, August 12, 2011 (UTC) 20:42, August 12, 2011 (UTC)I realize that it's polite to refer to trans people by their chosen pronouns, but there's no evidence anywhere to suggest that Grell IS transgendered, and I frankly don't know where people are getting that idea. It's clearly stated in the manga, in his own words, that he's male, though he does indeed prefer to be called a lady. Unless the meaning of transgender has changed, and it now means that you are the gender you believe yourself to be, then he's still a bisexual male. (Besides, he's a supernatural entity, so his gender may be a matter of illusion in any case.) But if you want to insist on it, I won't press the point; go ahead and call him her. I'm sure s/he'd be happy with that. We go with what the majority of people (both fans and characters) refer to him as. Almost all of the characters refer to him as he, as do most fans. And please try not to be rude about this. You can make changes, but please be polite and try not to insult anyone. =) SereneChaos 21:28, August 12, 2011 (UTC) So insulting trans people in general is "polite" but calling out someone on their bigotry is "impolite"? That's just backward. Someone preferring to use pronouns opposite of their birth gender is one of the major hallmarks of being transsexual. She wants to be referred to as a woman, she wishes she could give birth, she dresses how she feels, etc. So saying "Well I just don't see it" is being willfully ignorant. Being transsexual and seeing people go "well I don't see it so I'm just going to keep referring to her as a man because it makes me comfortable" feels like a constant personal attack from poeple like you. I bet now that you know I'm transsexual you'll start referring to ME as a man even though you know to do otherwise. 21:46, August 12, 2011 (UTC) Taking part in bigotry makes you a bigot. That's not impolite that's the facts. Get over it. 21:48, August 12, 2011 (UTC) Serene Chaos, you are a bigot. Standing behind "Well everybody does it so that's okay" is just cowardice. Stand up for your backward transphobic opinions if you're going to have them. Own up to that you're a transphobe. Maybe you want to go around calling gay men "faggots" next. That seems up your alley. Then when people call you out on your bigotry you can get mad at people for calling you a bigot saying that they're the impolite ones. That is literally what you're doing here. SadSacks 21:56, August 12, 2011 (UTC) I'm not angry and I'm not transphobic either. =) We address Grell as he for the same reason that we don't call him "Grelle" even though that's most likely the correct translation. And I don't know peoples' gender online, so I try not to use it. SereneChaos 22:03, August 12, 2011 (UTC) But the point of the wiki is to transmit facts about this. To call her "he" repeatedly is knowably wrong and the only purpose to do so is because you don't care about transsexual people's identities or see them as valid. You are contributing to the overall stigma and erasure of trans peoples identities that takes place in our society. People like to see people like themselves treated with respect in media and by being disrespectful you are adding to the hate and making that kind of mindset okay for people who are hateful. They see other people act in such a way and it normalizes their hatred and they feel more okay acting upon it because they believe everybody agrees with them. To claim that you're not "transphobic" is just ignorance on your part. You may not feel you're acting in such a way or with malice but intent is not magic. What you're doing is objectively transphobic. SadSacks 22:10, August 12, 2011 (UTC) Sorry? How about this: we open a discussion as to whether we use he or she on Grell's page. It will stay open for one week (so most regular editors can join in, even though we don't have many) or longer if needed. At the end, we will use the community agreed term and we can move on and edit other things. Until then, Grell's page will stay locked so we don't have an edit war. Is this good? SereneChaos 22:19, August 12, 2011 (UTC) Peoples identities are not a matter of debate. She wants to be referred to as female according to literally everything in the show and manga so doing anything else is just being rude and transphobic. SadSacks 22:44, August 12, 2011 (UTC) If you don't think I'll make the discussion fair enough, you can write it. Anyway, I need to leave right now. I'll come back as soon as I can. SereneChaos 23:03, August 12, 2011 (UTC) Big decisions should be made by the community and apparently this is a big enough issue that it offends you. If it's not settled by the community, someone else will just start this all up again. If we settle it this way, no one else can re-open the issue. Besides, we don't have many regular editors (maybe 5 at the most) and most of them don't come on every week or participate in discussions (we've had a policy discussion open for a little more than a week and only one person other than me has participated). If only you vote for using she, that pretty much makes it a tie in the worst case scenario (I won't vote). Things are stacked in your favor and this is a more permanent solution. {C I've made a disscussion here. You can add anything to support using she that you want. SereneChaos 20:03, August 13, 2011 (UTC) Guys, please let's not argue about this. Grell is a MAN and therefore most people would reffer to HIM as a HE, no-one in the anime has ever called Grell a she except Grell himself. But I agree we should settle it as a community because otherwise someone will start this all up again. I think someone should put a poll on the front page and let the viewers decide. Storme-chan 18:05, September 23, 2011 (UTC) We've already decided on using he. You can see the my post under important for more info. =) SereneChaos 20:59, September 23, 2011 (UTC) Could I just add that if someone had only told the original poster "you're confusing transgendered with transsexual, they're not the same, go look it up" instead of getting angry and throwing around claims of bigotry and prejudice, a lot of this wouldn't've been necessary? Angelynx-prime 01:01, January 8, 2012 (UTC) Wikipedia uses female pronouns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_Black_Butler_characters#Grell.27s_Gender). Someone's gender is not a matter of debate; it's what they identify as. And the manga and anime have both made it quite clear what gender Grell considers herself to be. "Here's the thing about rights: they're not supposed to be voted on. That's why they call them rights." She has the right to identify herself. You don't have the right to vote on someone else's identity. It's that simple. I may not be active on this wiki, but I'm a huge fan of the series and a physically-female, male-identified civil rights activist. Funny how the federal government (which notoriously behind on LGBT rights) recgonizes me as a male, but so called "fans" of a series won't even acknowledge the presence of a transwoman. 07:24, January 16, 2012 (UTC) Discussion is already closed. Shinigami's eyes Have to point out that in the anime, the shinigami all have chartreuse green eyes, not yellow, with lime in the center. Bisexual or Gay? I really want to know where people get the idea that Grell is bisexual. It can't have been Angelina. His interest in her was sympathetic & as he wishes he had a female body & loves red, he more than likely idolized her appearance rather than felt any lust or romantic inclinations for her. Hey, you've been participating in talk pages for a while now so maybe you should think about making an account and sign in :) I'm not really sure about your question; I just know that he showed some interest in her. Whether or not it involves romance, I'm not sure. Meh, gotta agree with Lau. Not sure :P but I like Grell the way he is and I don't really care whether if he's Bisexual or Gay, but he must flirt with men :D Stranger958 04:14, October 26, 2011 (UTC) THE BUDDY I agree with Lau and Buddy, I know he has this interest in her, but whether it's actually romance is really ambiguous :S --[[User:Tsuminohime|'The Princess']] [[User talk:Tsuminohime|'who Dwells Within' the Darkness of Sin]] 05:34, October 26, 2011 (UTC) Riddle me this; if someone who hits exclusively on men only questionably hits on one woman ever, does that count as bisexual? Wouldn't that one woman be the exception instead? No matter how you look at it, since it can't be proven he's bisexual, it's complete speculation. You could surmise from the art that Toboso had a hand fetish, but you really need "word of god" to make it a fact. First of all sign your name. And about the bisexual debate the standard meaning of bisexual would basically mean attraction to both males and females; the number of males/females they are attracted to shouldnt count. In other words there shouldnt be any 'exception'; as long as Grell shows attraction to both genders. Moreover theres no proof that Grell harbors any romantic feelings toward that certain woman. So I agree with you on the theory that Grell is bisexual is spectulation. }} 02:19, November 1, 2011 (UTC) Whatever C. Phantom said, I would have said, too. Makes it so much easier for meh :) Transsexual or androgynous? I'm going with Androgyn. He does not have a problem admitting that he's male; he's not adamantly denying it or outright demanding he be thought of/spoken to/treated like a woman so much as suggesting or asking as much. He doesn't even bother crossdressing even though he has the body for it, so he's really halfassing the whole transsexual thing. His personality is androgynous & his appearance is androgynous. Hmm, your androgynous argument makes sense I guess. But I dunno cuz he sometimes refers to himself as a female although I won't delve into that. Whatever Lau said above is what I would say too. --[[User:Tsuminohime|'The Princess']] [[User talk:Tsuminohime|'who Dwells Within''' the Darkness of Sin]] 05:34, October 26, 2011 (UTC) I think I've got it; Grell is an eccentric violent Newhalf & an excellent fighter in the manga, though he really halfasses it in the anime & comes off as just an androgynous incompitant campy queen with a permanent "kick me" sign stuck to his back. (Seriously, he's more like a Druitt clone in the anime). I once came across an unusual social satire manga where all men talked like women & all women talked like men, all women had short hair & all men had long hair. No one denied what gender they were. Grell just seemed like a character straight out of it. Still...Even in the manga it's questionable about how seriously Grell takes his femininity. He has the beauty to crossdress & if he did, people would stop refurring to him with masculine terms, yet he continues to wear only women's accessories with men's clothing. It seems he's comfortable with being a man & a woman at the same time (who knows, he could even turn out to be a sterile hermaphrodite someday), but that's androgeny. Sign your name. And whats with you bashing on Grell? Its unnecessary to compare that 'unusual social satire manga' and its characters to Kuroshitsuji and its characters; they are two completely different mangas that wouldnt prove an enlightening point when compared. Specify 'no one' in your statement 'no one denied what gender they were'. From then on is just speculation. Its your opinion that he has to beauty to crossdress and your theory that people would stop referring him to masculine terms if he does so. You also infer that hes comfortable with being a man and a woman. I dont really get your argument or debate or whatever since it consists heavily of spectulation. }} 02:28, November 1, 2011 (UTC) Yeah what C. Phantom said. (Although, imo, that's the weirdest manga I have ever heard of.) Comparing it was an afterthought & not the point of my argument. I feel more like I'm defending Grell than bashing him, as he's one of my favorite characters after all. As for signing my name, wiki's usually autosign, but for some reason this one rarely if ever does with me. In a cartoon penned by Yana Toboso and originally published on Twitter, Grell refers to himself as an "Okama" which is slang for an effeminate gay male http://d-6th.com/blog/assets_c/2010/11/100722_tw-thumb-400x400-406.jpg. Official sites also refer to Grell as an "Okama" or "Big Sister" - another slang term for a gay man. Grell saying he wants a sex change is actually a very common gay stereotype in Japan. Gay men are thought to be something between a man and a woman - and Grell actually says as much in the "Ciel in Wonderland" OVA. Grell's use of feminine pronouns is actually a specific linguistic form called "onee-san kotoba," literally "Big Sister speech." It is a hyperfeminine, excessively cutesy mode of speech not normally employed by adult women, but is the stereotypical way that gay males speak. Remember that transwomen are women, and behave like women, not over-the-top caricatures of femininity. Also Yana frequently draws Grell with his chainsaw positioned like an enormous phallic symbol, so it seems unlikely that she intends for her readers to see him as a woman. So I don't think he's either trans or androgynous. He is a flamboyant gay male. I'm not going to say much besides sign your name and to provide evidence for your argument. I see the pic that you gave but frankly, I don't understand what is on there. And also that stereotype thing in Japan needs to be proven. The gay men are thought to be something between a man and a woman needs to be proven. Grell saying as much in the OVA is not sufficient proof. That stereotype way that gay males speak needs to be proven. The chainsaw part where it's positioned like an 'enormous pallic symbol' is just speculation. (Man, I think I kinda sounded like C. Phantom or something huh?) Quotes? Recently, a nony edited Grell's quotes and made me curious; Where do we base the manga quotes from? Are we gonna base it on the scans or the actual book? [[User:Stranger958|'The Buddy']] [[User Talk:Stranger958|'loves''' Undertaker]] 10:14, November 14, 2011 (UTC) I don't think we have an official place to get quotes from. I try to change manga quotes to what the English publisher, Yen Press, uses just because I think it make us seem more official (and because their translations sounds more British xP). But that's just what I prefer and I don't know where everyone else gets their quotes. SereneChaos 02:48, November 15, 2011 (UTC) Ikr, people don't leave refs which irks me so much... I based the quotes on the scans cuz I personally don't own the actual books (sadly). So I guess that leaves only Serene to make the official translations. The Tales of Will the Shinigami On Grell's page, I'm pretty sure the Tales of Will the Shinigami does not deserve it's own section. If that ova is to be included, shouldn't it be under the section OVAs which is under the section of Anime's Synopsis like on Angelina Durless's page? I don't think it deserves it's own section, although I do think we should have a section for OVAs. SereneChaos 01:05, January 8, 2012 (UTC)